Dharma Lab · Transcript

Drained or Energized

Mingyur Rinpoche, Richie Davidson & Cortland Dahl

1. Cold Open

Cortland Dahl

Ache, you have like kind of an insane amount of activity going on and yet I always joke — you look like you just got out of a spa for six months. Like you look calm and relaxed. So how, on a daily basis, how do you find the energy for all of that?

Mingyur Rinpoche

Yeah, I think last month I counted — I think I have 32 different projects.

So for me, meditation of course really helps. When we have so many projects and a busy schedule, the mind loses the present moment — past regrets, future worries. The body follows: stomach tense, muscles tight. So what I do is: while you're in the busy schedule, be present now with the body. Almost like time is stopped. What you feel is like you are resting. You are working, you are resting at the same time. So then the stress is gone.

Of course I still feel tired sometimes. I don't feel that stressful.

2. The Inner Sky

Cortland Dahl

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Dharma Lab. I'm here with Dr. Richard Davidson — Richie — one of the most brilliant neuroscientists on the planet. And we are here with Ming, our meditation teacher, our dear friend and collaborator.

This is the second in this short series. I wanted to kick things off with an observation. You guys are both two of the most productive people I've ever met — the amount of projects, meetings, impact — it's kind of amazing. And yet you are both meditators. You both spend time in retreat every year. Ache, in your case, oftentimes for months or years. In fact, after you started Tergar International, you left for five years — wandering in the mountains. So somehow there's this interesting alchemy: a lot of time for doing nothing in meditation, apparently not being productive, and yet a source of tremendous creativity, productivity, and doing good in the world.

People might think that meditation is selfish — taking time away from your family, from important stuff. But what we can see from the two of you is that actually, when it comes to doing good in the world, meditation is so profoundly helpful. Ache, does this spark anything for you?

Mingyur Rinpoche

Yeah. So many people sometimes ask me — what is, for you, the meaning of life?

So I say two things. First is my own practice: there's an ongoing exploration to find the wonderful qualities within myself. In the ancient teachings, what we say is — we are more than what we believe, and more than what we perceive or feel about ourselves. In fact, we all have this inner sky. No matter how much the storm — like panic attacks, depression, anger, hatred, loneliness — all this comes, and it never changes the nature of the sky. The sky cannot be polluted. And that sky is not just empty — because of the sky, we can exist. So this wonderful innate quality has unlimited discovery. It's very exciting, something new, meaningful, purposeful.

But at the same time, what I learn — I'm eager to share. Like sometimes, you know, in the airplane they say: take your mask before helping others. So if you really want to help others, you need something to help others with. So I teach. The ongoing lifelong interest is teaching others — to help them connect with this wonderful quality within themselves. The awareness, love, compassion, wisdom. That is the purpose of my life.

There's no real contradiction — my own practice helps my teaching, helping others, and helping others also helps me.

3. Time Is a Rubber Band

Cortland Dahl

Ache, on a daily basis — knowing how devoted you are to your meditation practice and knowing how much work you have going on — I think you have eight organizations, from philanthropic work in the Himalayas to a global meditation community to schools in Kathmandu. I've never seen you looking overwhelmed. So how do you find the energy for all of that?

Mingyur Rinpoche

Yeah, I think last month I counted — I think I have 32 different projects.

So for me, meditation of course really helps. I think normally what happens when we have so many projects and a busy schedule is our mind loses the present moment. It's like, oh, this is not done. This is something that happened that wasn't — didn't go well. So either past, or future worry — what's next? Or it might be something dangerous, could go wrong, what should I do? So you lose the present, and even the body is stressed. Your stomach tense, your muscles become like this. Maybe your ear a little bit goes and you become a little bit speeding, you know? And then past-future, past-future.

So what I do — time is like a rubber band. There's a lot of flexibility. If you know how to manage well, you can find your own practice. You can do some physical exercise also, sleep well, meditate, and do all these other things. But while you're doing this busy schedule, be present now with the body. Almost like feel like time is stopped. It's like that present moment — what you feel is like you are resting.

Of course I still feel tired sometimes. I don't feel that stressful. And my job is mostly teaching — guiding, inspiring others — all the different organizations. What I do, what I teach, I also practice. So my teaching is also my practice. I practice, sometime also teaching. Buy one, get one free.

Cortland Dahl

That's great. Richie, what about you? How do you deal with this on a daily basis?

4. What Drains, What Replenishes

Cortland Dahl

Yeah. I've noticed in my own practice — especially when I think about how my inner practice reinforces doing things in the world — it almost feels to me like different elements of practice are like plugging into a power source.

What I've noticed is that a lot of our conditioning from society is around getting our needs met. We're getting all this programming from the outside world that is triggering wants and needs — like we need to get stuff, we need to improve ourselves. Our relationships aren't good enough. Our health isn't good enough. Our jobs are not good enough. And we're just this endless wants and needs. And that's depleting. When you follow those impulses — even if you're successful, even if you get more money, a better relationship, a better job — it's never-ending. You just want more and need more. So it's ultimately depleting.

Whereas what you're both talking about — which has been my experience as well — is that it's incredibly energizing to shift toward this attitude of being of service. Rather than the needing, where you get depleted by chasing that — when you're motivated by being of service, it's actually energizing. So the more you do that, the more energized you feel, the more inspired and fulfilled you feel.

And then there's almost like a separate power source — which is around awareness and just bringing more presence into life. And then similarly, curiosity, insight, wisdom. They're almost like these little power sources. At the beginning you're kind of learning to find the plug, but then once you get it and you plug it in, it's really energizing. The energy of compassion, the energy of wisdom, the energy of presence and awareness — it just becomes the opposite of the depleting energy that so many of us feel.

For me, being sensitive to that also means being aware of what I'm plugging into. I can see there are specific activities and habits that maybe in the moment bring a little pleasure or distraction, but ultimately are draining. Noticing: did that conversation, that thing I was watching — did it make me more inspired or less inspired?

For me, especially at the beginning — back in the early 1990s, long before meditation apps, living in the Midwest as an introvert with no teachers nearby — reading was my teacher. I think if I hadn't had books at that time, my life would have just gone in a very different direction.

We need to be intentional about what we feed ourselves. Not just food and sustenance, but the information we take in, the people we surround ourselves with, the things we choose to spend our time on. If we're just surrounded by toxic stuff all the time — doom scrolling, binge-watching — there's just no space for awareness. It might happen, but it's going to be a slog. So just being aware of — what am I plugging myself into right now? — has been a really helpful metaphor.

5. Service as the Real Power Source

Richie Davidson

Yeah — one of the things I find most helpful — in my own meditation practice but also in other things I do, for example with physical exercise — is whenever we practice to invoke the intention that we're practicing not only for ourselves, but for the benefit of others. I've found this to be profoundly helpful. When I go out and do physical exercise, it's not just for my own health — but if I'm healthy and have more energy and vitality, it enables me to better serve others. Invoking that altruistic intention is really powerful.

One of the little practices I've evolved: after I meditate every day, I look at my calendar and just see all the meetings I have. It doesn't take more than a couple of minutes. I look through it and just reflect: how can I be most helpful in each of these meetings? Using this kind of altruistic motivation, I can have an enormously busy day but feel very nourished by it, because of this quality of service.

And I really try to remember to bring this into the world, and to every encounter. Using transitions as a reminder. Having this intention of serving others. This is also something the Dalai Lama has really reinforced in my life. There's a famous passage from Shantideva, and I have it right in front of me — I read it every day:

Invoking the intention that this is really why I am doing what I'm doing — to relieve the suffering of others. Everything in my life is devoted to this. Remembering that every day really helps to give energy to what I do, and infuses it with this quality of service.

Mingyur Rinpoche

The intention about altruism, loving kindness, compassion — is the real power source, as Richie mentioned. A power source for me also. But at the same time, there are a lot of power sources. Maybe one is what we call wisdom. And sometimes we need to learn how to say no also, and give yourself space and time. Self-compassion is also important, and that also helps others.

Sometimes what we call — compassion needs wisdom. So what is wisdom? Wisdom is also learning how to let go. But letting go is not the same as giving up.

6. Three Pillars: Awareness, Altruism, Wisdom

Mingyur Rinpoche

When I learn this — I integrate three things normally. The basis is awareness, meaning to be present. And second, there's altruism — the ongoing loving kindness and compassion. And the third is the ongoing wisdom, which is letting go. Accepting reality as it is — because everything changes. Life is up and down, up and down. Accepting up and down is the wisdom.

So then one really becomes balanced, and that is very healthy — emotionally healthy. It helps physically also, and it helps my teaching also, and through that helps more people. My relationships, my students, the monasteries, the different projects — all of this is helped by this practice also.

Cortland Dahl

Richie, maybe to conclude this discussion, you could just mention briefly the way that the current research is showing the ripple effect. How strong is the evidence right now that what Rinpoche is saying is true — that by putting the mask on and taking care of ourselves, doing our own practice, it quite spontaneously ripples out and changes not only the interactions, but even the systems within which we operate?

7. The Science & Closing Practice

Richie Davidson

Yeah. Well, it's a really important area of current scientific inquiry. The evidence, I would say, is really just beginning to be developed — we're still in the very early stages. But to give one specific example: research we are doing with our dear friends Leandro Chernikoff and Daniella Labra, who run a wonderful nonprofit in Mexico called Mente. We've been doing research with healthcare providers in five of the poorest states in Mexico — a combined program built around awareness, loving kindness, compassion, and wisdom. All provided online. A digital intervention.

And this was a randomized controlled trial — healthcare providers were randomly assigned to either this meditation training or a control group. It turns out that the healthcare outcomes are actually measurably better, and productivity is measurably greater, among the healthcare providers who went through this training.

We also find in our scientific work more broadly that when people — even at the very beginning, doing meditation just for a month, with really short amounts of practice — they become more present, more connected, more curious, and more purposeful. They affect people in their environment. We've done this with teachers: teachers who go through this kind of training actually end up being better teachers. Their students perform better — even though the students received no instruction of any kind and had no idea any research was happening. Just by having their teacher be more present, more aware, more loving and connected.

One of the slogans that has emerged from our work: flourishing is contagious. And this is the kind of evidence that really can help us cross a tipping point — where it would make sense for all healthcare organizations, all schools, to have this kind of training as part of how they develop their people.

Cortland Dahl

Ache, would you mind just leading a tiny micro-practice? Maybe just a minute, based on this whole idea that flourishing is contagious. Just to finish our discussion here.

Mingyur Rinpoche

Yes. So I think we believe that everybody has innate love and compassion. All of you who come here to listen and watch this program — you want to be happy. So there's a longing within all of us, looking for something: purpose, meaning, something nice. So connect with that intention within the heart, feel that longing, and then expand that longing to others.

May all of us have happiness and the causes of happiness. May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.

Okay. Thank you.

Cortland Dahl

Thank you so much. And of course, as always, Richie, a joy to spend some time together. So thank you again, and we hope to see all of you who have tuned in on another episode of Dharma Lab. Take care.

Dharma Lab · Mingyur Rinpoche, Richie Davidson & Cortland Dahl